Love & Logistics: How Couples Make Business (and Marriage) Work

Intro:

In today's episode of its family business, we're joined by the powerhouse duo behind one of Australia's premier law firms, Gair Legal. Meet Jen, the firm's managing partner, and her husband of over 20 years, Anthony, the firm's director.

Established in 2011, Gair Legal has quickly grown into a highly respective, and progressive legal practise, providing strategic and proactive dispute resolutions for insurers and employers across multiple locations. But behind the legal excellence is a family story.

Jen and Anthony built this business with the dream of creating more time for their growing family. As the firm grew faster than expected they flipped the traditional roles. Jen took the reins of the business and Anthony became the rock at home while supporting the operations behind the scenes. Now, over a decade later, they've built not only a thriving company, but a family legacy.

So let's dive in as we pull back the curtain on life, law and love with Jen and Anthony.

Cheryl:
Hi everybody and welcome to its family business. I'm here with Jen and Anthony Cummins from Gair Legal. Welcome, guys.

So today we're going to be talking about your business. So what is your business? What do you do?

Anthony:
We're. A personal injury law firm.

Cheryl:
Where are you located?

Anthony:
We’ve got three offices, so we've got one on the Northern Beaches here where we are today and we have one in Chatswood and one in Newcastle.

Cheryl:
Lovely and how long have? You been in business for?

Jen:
Coming up to 15 years.

Cheryl:
15 years. Wow, how did you Get started.

Jen:
I was working as a partner in a national law firm in the city and Anthony was working as a general manager for a gas company I think at the time. I think a lot of the decision was around the kids. We just had two young daughters. I was travelling into the city everyday. It was a lot of time to get in there and back. We were utilising nannies for the girls and Emma hadn't even started school at that stage. They're both young, so I think that factored into saying why don't we set up a law firm.

Anthony:
It's all about lifestyle really. it was a combination of the second child. Jen was working in the city, and we just knew that the lifestyle we wanted to lead going forward and so here's an opportunity and we felt very comfortable that you know we could build this company.

We came to a conclusion pretty quickly. Like gosh, we've got the skills set to set this up.

Jen had the skill set to start to grow that business and let's just see how it goes.

You know, we weren't looking to, be probably the size of what it now is.It was really that we can set it up. Worst case scenario could be a suburban law firm. But behind that I must admit, I did think we could grow it and it could become a sizeable business.

We had no expectation of that. I think it was a pretty hectic time and we just thought, no, let's, let's go for the lifestyle that we actually want to achieve and that was probably the main decision maker.

Jen:
Yeah, I remember thinking at the time when we first started, Anthony was full time and had a good job. I would just do three days a week and this would be me looking after the kids.

My full time partner role in the city was fairly demanding and the kids were young. [So we thought we] will get rid of the nannies and I'll have and this this gig,  and I'll see the kids a lot more often. But within six months we sat down together and went. Ohh this [running your own firm] is a full time job.

So the decision was Anthony quit his job, OK? He can do the full time parenting illegal.

Anthony:
What's funny is like we actually completely reversed our roles, because at that time I was sort of working. I was travelling a lot, Jen was doing all the financing at home.

Cheryl:
And at the time that was probably unusual.

Jen:
I was so happy because I'm not finance based, so I was happy to say ‘I'm handing this all back.’

I'm doing what I can do. For Anthony, he was pick up, drop off, ballet. The girls are into their dance. He was having to do the ballet buns on the his.

Cheryl:
How about at night?

Technically you started out at stereotypical roles, working woman stays at home and then you switched roles. Was there any, not sort of flat back but you know, people sort of criticising that?

Anthony:
Certainly. My friends were like, flabbergasted. Even though I was working a fair bit, obviously with Gair legal and so it's only the after-school type things where I probably did it.

Before this, I was travelling regularly at least once a week and you're sort of, you know, you're doing the business class flights, you're doing the nice hotels, they're going, Oh my gosh. Staying at home?!

When the opportunity to spend a bit more time with the kids, which I hadn't done a heap at that stage, was something I found easy.

And Jen’s always been good in that when she comes in the house she switches directly off, and then it's all about being mum, wife and all that which you know, that's something that Jen's always done really well.

Jen:
Anthony was getting really good quality time in the morning, getting them to school, getting them home. But in all of it, when I looked back and even at the time; I remember watching it going, he's doing a much better job than I did! I'd get stressed knowing I'd have to get into the city or whatever it is. The stress of that and managing kids and rushing everyone out the door.

They only had that for a short period. Anthony has a more relaxed approach instead of nagging and harassing them and it flowed differently. I think [with Anthony] they have they have a much better experience.

Cheryl:
So when you've had the switch and the roles, you've become the worker and you're sort of doing more of the home duties. Did you then Jen, were able to because it was a lifestyle choice, be able to take time off work? Go and see the girls get their awards and their hat parades.

Jen:
Exactly. I mean the key thing for both of us was, we set up originally the first office was just the Northern Beaches Office. It's 10 minutes from everything that we needed at home, in school and all that sort of stuff.

So, I could duck out when there was something on the girls were doing a dance or they were at swimming carnival or something and I could be there. And we both make it and sometimes. It was unusual to have both parents.

As this is happening the Company’s growing and the Business is growing and we're bringing on staff. Anthony's done all the non-legal work which started getting bigger and bigger. It sort of worked well that the kids were getting older and more self-sufficient by that stage.

We’ve always been pretty flexible. So I mean that helped us both that we were relaxed even before things like COVID which cause people to become more flexible in their hours. We chose to be flexible from the word go. So for me, I was probably more relaxed. I don't need to be at work at 9:00 or at 9:15 and for me I found it comfortable to then work and then pick up the kids. And then 8:00 at night, 9:00, I able to relax to sit down and do work then.

We didn't get dictated by restricted work hours and never have. We still to this day, whether we wanna just stuck out and play a bit of sport, do some exercise whatever. That's what we make sure we do incorporate into our daily lifestyle I suppose.

Cheryl:
So you really made the business work around you. Do you find you still talk about work at home or around the dinner table?

Anthony:
Invariably, yes you do.

Jen:
Do we? We try not to.

This is a 24/7 job if we do it. Yeah. But it was then, especially when they're young, once they're in bed, then if I needed, I could do a couple of hours [of work] I wouldn't do it at the time when they're awake and we’re having dinner.

Cheryl:
Yeah, you're focused on them. You gave them their your full attention, yeah.

So how did the expansion of the business come about? So, you've started off with the northern beaches. Your lifestyle is the way that you wanted it to be, and then all of a sudden you're going for another office.

Was that kind of a natural progression?

Anthony:
Initially we were happy with small. You know, we're lucky enough to be reasonably profitable. But the more you become successful, the more others want you to be bigger.

We're dictated by our people. If we get some good people [employees], I go hold on, I can build a geographic location around that person and office. So, when we've got the appropriate people, let's grow because we've always been lucky enough that our service is what we’re known for.

Essentially, if we had a fantastic person that we could work with in that area, then we’d find a site and we sort of went from there and that’s continued to grow and they continue to grow and evolve even today.

Jen:
We now know how to, having done that, that we can we can set up an office. Once you've set up one  you can set up multiple using hat formula we knew. Inevitably, I think in every office we've had to either expand that office or get another floor.

Jen:
We've been fortunate. I mean, we're lucky that we've had good people and clients supporting the business and so forth so. I think there's some good management there. We’ve also been very lucky along the way we've got some very good staff. I mean, we've been tested. We’ve talked about how in the legal industry, our investment is in the lawyers that work at Gair Legal. And that's crucial to us and it's been critical who we choose and who is part of the legal fabric and that has made a huge difference.

That was one of the things you know, cause Jen, when she started, when you originally were working for the big law firm, she had a lot of other partners that were all probably nice People, but they weren't sort of the people who really, if you had your choice, would you wanna be in business with the long term?

And so that's one of the our mantras I suppose. We want people that we resonate with. I suppose we look for energy we look for you know the communication skills and are they sort of nice people you know, do we want to be in business with them and that's sort of gonna put us in good stead to help us and create the culture.

Cheryl:
Yes sometimes their resume can be amazing, but the kind of personality that they have doesn't quite fit in with.

Anthony:
Well, but you know, we've had examples where we've had incredible bills, you know, and you go wow, look at that, you know, they're absolutely killing. But they're impacting the culture of the firm and each time we sort of made the call, we take culture over profit, you know, so let's you know, let's work with them. And you know hopefully they can find another opportunity.

Jen:
We've got a sporting culture, we love our sport. Our really senior lawyers they're really talented, sportsmen and women. Which is really interesting. But I think it's probably a product of how we started as well. And it might be what resonates with us when we look to get staff.

Anthony:
You’ve obviously gotta have that base knowledge. I know for Jen it's always been about continual learning, so if you got that energy you're having that continual learning, that's what's going to make you a really good lawyer. That's going to make you a really good person.

Jen:
We can really add value to our clients. We've got the quality at the senior level of lawyers so we know then that if they're [new lawyers] coming in without the legal background in personal injury, we can train them

We’re confident that we'll bring them up to speed very quickly.

Kirsten:
Do you have any sort of initiatives or things that you put in place to help build that culture that you're, trying to foster in the business?

Anthony:
We work with a mentoring system. Whilst we want your individual Billings, we also want you to have that sort of responsibility and accountability to bring the younger lawyers through or even the paralegals, or eventhe support staff. You know we want you to continually bring them forward to get their learnings up and get their understandings happening.

Jen:
Well, I think for me too and having worked with other senior lawyers, they would say the same thing about the point of difference is that in those firms, in the traditional model, your biggest competitor is another lawyer in that same office and you work tend to work in silos.

That was something that we were really conscious of not doing. We wanted everyone to feel like they were part of Gair Legal through our shared client base that anyone could be exposed to it. We expose our client base to even at junior level, which you wouldn't get in the more traditional law firm where they would protect that client base.

And I think the result of that is our retention rate is really, really long.

And we produce better more rounded our lawyers too.

We find by giving them that opportunity to build up perhaps earlier, to have those client relationships to have those client meetings discussions. It just does make them better lawyers. They're looking at all areas instead of a just a file. You know, they're then dealing with people, they're understanding where they're coming from. They're understanding their concerns. And hopefully then, you know, addressing those concerns.

Cheryl:
So what's be your proudest moment as a team working for your business?

Anthony:
You have to always be on panels to get any work, and really most of our competitors are national law firms and here we are, Jen and I pretty much on our own, how do you get on a panel?
 
So that probably that first panel win was really exciting cause that sort of like gave us hold on - We can build from this. We can leverage this, you know. So that was pretty exciting cause for the first time we've got a bit more confident about the future. This is a long term tender and again it's very hard to tender when you haven't got experience and say well hold on we're this small.

We were very fortunate really that, that first insurance company took a chance on us because they gave us the platform to build from.

And we’ve never lost a tender. So that’s f another thing we're very proud of, definitely.

Jen:
I think if you're saying from a business point of view. You know, winning the awards where it's peer based voting it's, you've got no control over that. Gair Legal has been voted first tier law firm workers comp in NSW 3 years back to back and there's only you know one of three against all our competitors and there's a lot of firms there and we've maintained that position. I'm incredibly proud of.

Kirsten:
So taking it back to your dynamic and how it works with the family and taking it right back, how did? The two of you meet.

Cheryl:
Ohh good question.

 

Anthony:
Well, gosh, I'm really good on that. We met at a restaurant in Dee Why. I sort of said, ‘hey, would you like to go dinner’. Then going out for dinner was funny cause Jen had some sporting tournament.

Jen:
My touch football tournament. In Queensland the following day?.

Anthony:
So I said let's have a quick dinner, but it seemed to go well, but I wasn't really, you know, 100% sure you. Then around 6:30 in the morning. I get this phone call and it was Jen and I though ‘God, have I still got it or what?”

Jen:
Ok I’ll tell you the real story.

Cheryl:
[Laughs] Tell me the real story.

Jen:
I didn't know his number. OK. And I was the team manager for the team going up and I was trying to get on to the tournament director to say we have players that were going to be late, so I thought I was ringing them.

Kirsten:
So since then, how's the relationship evolved and how has you know, managing your careers and everything sort of come into that as well?

Anthony:
Yeah, I think. The good thing, probably with work I suppose, is that we're kind of keeping in our lanes a little bit. Jen’s got the legal expertise and I’m probably everything non legal. So, it's sort of and yes I suppose we're communicating pretty much a lot of it so.

We’re still a Team. You will ring me what -at least couple times a day. And it's not that she often doesn't know the answer. I mean, you know, obviously knows what she's doing, but it's just really that bouncing off it's touching base, it's bouncing off, it's making sure I'm comfortable on anything she's thinking and vice versa.

Jen:
Yeah, it’s been pretty easy really, and I think it's maybe because we also don't crossover, but I uh, I need to check what Anthony's doing on that. And so look, I'm making a decision. I don't can't think of a time in that 15 years of this business where we have ever been at loggerheads or a difference of opinion.

Anthony:
and then if Jen’s come from one angle and I go well, I think it's this angle. We'll talk it through. And then we tend to have agreed whose angle, so maybe it’s Jen’s angle I'll agree to, or she would jump across.

We’re pretty much I think on the same mindset on most things like that. So I think that worked well. Ande we just like to like to do things together anyway, which is nice. But then do our sporting activities, and you know separate activities so you still have that time where you can do what you wanna do and so forth. But yeah, we spend a lot of time, I suppose, doing things together anyway and as a family.

Jen:
But also, I mean one thing that you always see which is interesting, we've never worked from the same office though, and I think that's helped too.

Anthony has always worked from home and we have an office set up at home and I've always worked from the Northern Beaches Office. While we're ringing [eachother]all the time we've had that separation

 I do think that's important. That was kind of intentional, you know, you don't want to be, in each other's face 24/7. Like I think it is nice to have that.

Anthony:
Well, we've had that independence.

Cheryl:
So how do you keep the romance and the spark going?

Anthony:
I don't know. Look, I don't think that work takes away from our personal space and our personal time and in some ways, even though we both work hard we're pretty efficient at our time, aren't we? So we we've actually got plenty of time and we always make sure we make time for ourselves so.

Jen:
We're not the sort, and I hear about we've got date nights every Tuesday night, we've never done any of that work because things change. We've always been really flexible. We might say we're doing something on this night, but if on that day things change, we will both be very flexible and not set in stone or anything.

Probably an answer to that is Anthony's been really good and always organising dates and I think if it was left to me it wouldn't happen. He t would say ‘OK we're getting time away. Let's get to Port Douglas’. And it might be just for the two of us.

Or the kids are coming. Inevitably more often than not with the kids, but we've also had holidays where it's just the two of us. We just went to Queenstown recently and that was just the two of us. And I think that helps too time away. Even if we still feel like we're taking a bit of work with us. And talking about it doesn't matter.

Kirsten:
So, has there been a challenge, though that you guys have had to overcome in finding that rhythm that works?

Anthony:
We’ve been pretty lucky I think. I don't know.

I think cause earlier on we had that very clear vision of what we wanted to achieve and where those boundaries were like right from the word go because it was about we can make X amount of money, you know it wasn't really about that. It was it was lifestyle first. And even as we've grown we would never want to do that at the expense of having a good time.

Like you can work yourself to the bone. But if you don't enjoy it and you're not enjoying every day - And that's what we do hopefully we enjoy what we do.

Jen:
I think we do. I think too, we've always been good communicators, and I can distinctly remember a discussion we had when the business was in the first six months or eight months, and we thought, oh, this isn't a part time gig, we could build a law firm here and not me as a sole practitioner working in a little office. The decision for Anthony to leave a full time job was very early, we were miles away from obviously where we are but we had to clearly define the roles and let that person manage it their way.

For example Anthony maybe didn’t do the washing the way I was doing the washing, even though that sounds so silly.

Anthony:
Because I'm not gonna do it the same way you would do it. I'll do these things differently,

Jen:
Or even the getting the kids ready for school, or the you know lunch boxes, but I had to step back and go ‘ok that’s not my role’.

So I think there's just a little example, and if you're not on the same page, if you can talk about and go, ‘oh, that's where he's coming from’,

Anthony:
There probably was that, you know, that transfer of responsibilities and slight changes from both of us, but. Even in that I still think like Jen for example was involved like with the ‘what do we do for the kids?’ and the morning routine or whatever. So role were never strictly adhered to.

It's ery fluid, and I think you can't count what you've done and what the other person's done.

Cheryl:
Yeah, yeah, you can't keep a tally. We're both busy and committed, yeah.

Have other people helped you to build your business like other occupations, or, you know, did you all have coaches or mentors?

Jen:
I think we both had successful careers before we started Gair League and I think that was a default.

Anthony:
We almost faked to make it like you look at the kids now and they learn how to do talks and they're doing presentations in class, you know from primary school and even in high school. I remember my first talk, I think I was like 24 and you know there’s 180 people and I thought I'll just pretend even though I wasn't confident. I did want to make sure I presented as if I was confident.

I think all those different little techniques, we learned them by being Poly experts in our field before we start up Gair Legal. So that made us pretty confident in our capabilities and what we could do. And I had quite a broad breath that you know like in terms of contracts, you know I'd sort of done a lot of contracts.

I've done tenders, I've done a lot of how do we do business. I wasn't particularly an expert when it came to setting up offices

Jen:
You know, between us, we're smart enough to work these things out so.

We didn't come in green. We individually had mentors as you know. But I'd I had already sort of established a client base, established my reputation as a partner in a national firm and then we kicked off the business. It wasn’t like we were kicking off and I was like 2 year lawyer, three year lawyer trying to make a name for myself. So we didn't reach out to anyone for help to set up Gair Legal we were relying upon our base.

Cheryl:
Yeah for sure.

So for those that are younger that are listening, it's kind of like, appreciate all the steps that you have to do along the way, because they could be leading you to whatever or wherever you're gonna be.

Anthony:
I actually think that’s critical. I've encouraged our kids, to go out and and do a few roles, that are your expertise or whatever area is important. And you learn. Learn the skills cause it's all sorts skill sets, whatever you're doing. You won't even know whether it's, you know, physical labour, or you're working in an office. You're learning how to communicate with people. You're learning how to get things done and that can be a skill-set in itself. It's like understanding you're doing physical labour, it's understanding how to communicate, all those type of skills they're just invaluable.

We both credit that we played a lot of sport and a lot of team sports. That does give you the ability to communicate across a large section of the community and having that ability to lead really does help you when you when you go out on your own.

Cheryl:
Have that winning attitude, yeah.

Jen:
I think we've both got that sort of same personality. If you're going to go for it, go all in, you can't go half baked. You're all in and throw everything behind it and throw your energy into it.

Anthony:
Something you mentioned before is ‘what if something went terrible?’

The thing is, I do believe when you get a win or a reward, it's superb and it's exciting and you wanna enjoy those rewards. But if something else happens; you lose a major client or, a major employee leaves or something. The key is not to get too low. Enjoy the wins, but you know, don't get too high or too low on those things, I think.

It's easy when things go wrong to have that negative mindset and think ‘Oh my God, Oh my God.’ That’s usually my initial reaction to negative things. But then I stop and think ‘how can we mitigate that?’ or ‘how can we leverage that?’ So it's sort of, yeah, it's just to have a different mindset.

Kirsten:
What do you think keeps you motivated, and I suppose grounded as well to keep, you know, obviously it's tiring working all the time. So what, what keeps you going?

Jen:
Ohh dear that's hard.
I think the people. I find now, the stress I have is a different stress from when I was just worrying about my practise. Now it's that we've invested in people and they've got careers at Gair Legal and that's really important to us. That and that does keep me going because I'm seeing junior lawyers come through and I'm seeing them progress. And you, you get a kick out of that, you get a kick out of seeing someone that develops into a really good lawyer. And to be part of that and for them to be part of that through Gair Legal.

That that is keeping me going.

Anthony:
We've also enjoyed the challenges. For example, we're sort of in a growth phase now. You know it is exciting when you open up another office, you know.

So last year, I think we opened up another two offices and expanded another office. Each time you do that, you go ‘Oh well, that's impressive!’ And it is also about the people, but it does make you feel good to see another evolution those opportunities arising.

Cheryl:
Being competitive that you are, I think you enjoy the challenge of what that's gonna give you and then you get to the end of that challenge, and you've won and now you go ‘Yep. OK, what's our next challenge?’

I think, you know, talking to both of you, the energy that the both of you bring your company is what continues to bring it forward and keeps the momentum going. I mean, I don't know any of your staff whatsoever, but I know just sitting here talking to the both of you and how passionate you both are about your business and about what you're building and how you're trying to build it. It's yeah, it's. Contagious.

What is nice, when you said about the people you want to give them opportunities too, but they have to be patient. And one of the things I think I find is that sometimes when you have staff, they're not patient enough to see the whole process to get to the end, to realise that they're actually going to be rewarded by working with you for you and all that.

Jen:
Yeah, exactly. And it doesn't happen overnight. It was about how hard we work. And there is development there. Some people hope to go from one spot immediately to the next spot. But there's a process there.

Cheryl:
Exactly it’s about taking all those little steps along the way which are teaching you something that you're going to need at the very end game, wherever you're going to end up and whatever you're going to do. Yeah.

So, what do you think your biggest strength is in the business? We'll start with you, Anthony.

Anthony:
Ohhh my gosh, it's so many!
 No, I think my biggest strength is listening to people, and perhaps when sometimes they don't know it, knowing their strengths and how we can help work with them to get to that next stage which, if they wanna go to the next stage, it's recognising them and their and their capability and the opportunity. And I think I've always been pretty good with that side of people and sort of recognising what they want and then helping them go about achieving that. I think that's been invaluable.

Cheryl:
And what about you, Jen? What would you think your best strength best quality would be that you bring to the business?

Jen:
Ohh look it's, I think I'm a people person. I can communicate well with lawyers and clients alike, and I think I'm comfortable in doing that. I work in an environment, particularly where litigation and firm that there's a lot of conflict. You're in conflict with your opposition. You could be in conflict sometimes even with your client there.

I don't like conflict, but I feel like I've managed a way to deal with it and I can disarm the lawyer on the other side that might be worked up and start the conversation where it's friendly and get the best out of whatever situation we're in and diffuse a conflict. I feel like I have an ability to diffuse conflicts and that can assist me then, whether it's in litigation with an opposing lawyer or council or with staff. In lawyers and issues that they might have in their own practise or internally, I think that's helped us.

Kirsten:
So to finish up, we've got a few quick questions. So just I'll give you like a rapid question and just give me your first response that you think.

So, who is the calm one in crisis?

Jen:
Anthony

Kirsten:
Why do you say that?

Anthony:
 I think just cause I'm an optimist really to tell the truth. Everything that you know happens I think ‘Oh, we'll work it out. It'll work out.’ I'm a bit more of an optimist so I can take a bit more calmer approach and then I suppose the way I react often is well ‘What can we do about it?’

Kirsten:
Mm-hmm. What's 1 ritual or habit that you think keeps your relationship strong amongst all the juggle?

Jen:
I think humour, I would say humour. We still laugh at each other's jokes even when no one else is laughing. Anthony still cracks me up. I think that keeps the relationship going when you still enjoy each other's company, but the sense of humour, yeah.

Anthony:
And I think we enjoy simple things. So it's always been very easy. Hasn't it?

Cheryl:
Yeah, cool. Very good.

Kirsten:
And our final question would be if a friend said ‘I'm thinking about going into business with my spouse’, what would be one piece of advice that you would give?

Jen:
Think very carefully about doing that. We say all this and it's easy for us, but we, you know, I think I actually would caution people to think if this works really well for us.

Anthony:
100% agree.

I think the segregation's important and some sort of delineation of maybe roles and responsibilities. It can work, but it's funny, my immediate answer was “Ohh, they'd be crazy”. I guess it’s not crazy but go in with open eyes. Make sure that you've got that relationship first of all. I think it's important.

We’ve got friends and we've seen other people who have who have tried to do it and it hasn't worked, and I can kind of understand why we've been really lucky. But I think it can work, so I don't anyone out there to think it can’t work but I think that delineation of roles, responsibilities and at some point somehow getting that time for yourself is important.

Jen:
And you know, I don't know if it would have been the same if we were both accountants setting up an accounting firm, or both lawyers setting up a law firm. We both had those different skill sets.

If we were in the same office, you know, working next to office to each other, and then we come home, you know the same car, to the same house. I don't know it that would’ve worked.

Cheryl:
Ohh, fantastic. Thank you both very much for joining us today on It’s Family Business we thoroughly, thoroughly enjoyed having you both so thanks so much.

Anthony:
Thanks for having us.